So. We're doing the first test of the website (The JohnByNightEngine as I call it), and a few issues came up around tracing.
Multiple traces: how should we resolve multiple observations of the same individual? Let's say Nefersedjem watches for both gauging and growth in the Streets, and Marcellus happens to do both. Nefersedjem gets two "notices" that he observed people, right? But now Nefersedjem traces one of them on the next turn. Should he learn the that both are the same person? I'm inclined to say no, and if Nefersedjem traced both of them he's learn both are Marcellus.
Now here's another item: Nefersedjem is watching for gauging again in the Streets when Tanit-Ishtar is gauging the streets, but Tanit-Ishtar is doing it with a level 0 action (i.e. just augments alone from, say, Investigation). Now, it seems clear that Nefersedjem should have a chance to gain information, and I've written before about giving level 0 and 1 actions a die or two of free concealment and the like. But let's say Nefersedjem is successful at noticing and then tracing this level 0 influence: what next?
It doesn't really make sense for Nefersedjem to have a trace on Tanit-Ishtar because Tanit-Ishtar doesn't have any influence to trace. So Nefersedjem just learns that it was a level 0 action and that's it? Or Nefersedjem learns it was a level 0 action done by Tanit-Ishtar? It might be really frustrating for people who attempt to trace level 0 actions and simply keep coming up empty handed with no information, but at least learning it was someone acting alone might help.
It makes sense that you can't actually get a permanent trace on an adversary with a level 0 influence because there's nothing to trace and they'd essentially also automatically be able to refresh (by the rules, refreshing a level 0 influence would take 0 points). Maybe instead of levels of Conceal, level 0 influences should have a die of something else, so that there's about a 50% chance that Nefersedjem just learns it is a level 0 action versus learning it was a level 0 action done by Tanit-Ishtar? This is a much more complex and unpredictable thing...
Another solution is to bring the human brain back into things. The system could flag every successful trace of a level 0 action and the ST might embellish the mechanical result by giving some vague information about the action or the actor without actually saying who it was. So Nefersedjet might learn that it was a woman asking around and gauging the streets, or perhaps that it was a Copt or a Roman or a Jew. Gender and Ethnicity might easily be added to the system for these cases, my understanding is it would be quite simple to have the engine report: "You traced a level 0 action, but determine it was a Greek male responsible." Of course, a blanket application of that might lead to the character being easily identifiable if, for example, there are only two female characters or only one Persian character and the ST flag might be a less "stupid" approach.
Decisions decisions...
Multiple traces: how should we resolve multiple observations of the same individual? Let's say Nefersedjem watches for both gauging and growth in the Streets, and Marcellus happens to do both. Nefersedjem gets two "notices" that he observed people, right? But now Nefersedjem traces one of them on the next turn. Should he learn the that both are the same person? I'm inclined to say no, and if Nefersedjem traced both of them he's learn both are Marcellus.
Now here's another item: Nefersedjem is watching for gauging again in the Streets when Tanit-Ishtar is gauging the streets, but Tanit-Ishtar is doing it with a level 0 action (i.e. just augments alone from, say, Investigation). Now, it seems clear that Nefersedjem should have a chance to gain information, and I've written before about giving level 0 and 1 actions a die or two of free concealment and the like. But let's say Nefersedjem is successful at noticing and then tracing this level 0 influence: what next?
It doesn't really make sense for Nefersedjem to have a trace on Tanit-Ishtar because Tanit-Ishtar doesn't have any influence to trace. So Nefersedjem just learns that it was a level 0 action and that's it? Or Nefersedjem learns it was a level 0 action done by Tanit-Ishtar? It might be really frustrating for people who attempt to trace level 0 actions and simply keep coming up empty handed with no information, but at least learning it was someone acting alone might help.
It makes sense that you can't actually get a permanent trace on an adversary with a level 0 influence because there's nothing to trace and they'd essentially also automatically be able to refresh (by the rules, refreshing a level 0 influence would take 0 points). Maybe instead of levels of Conceal, level 0 influences should have a die of something else, so that there's about a 50% chance that Nefersedjem just learns it is a level 0 action versus learning it was a level 0 action done by Tanit-Ishtar? This is a much more complex and unpredictable thing...
Another solution is to bring the human brain back into things. The system could flag every successful trace of a level 0 action and the ST might embellish the mechanical result by giving some vague information about the action or the actor without actually saying who it was. So Nefersedjet might learn that it was a woman asking around and gauging the streets, or perhaps that it was a Copt or a Roman or a Jew. Gender and Ethnicity might easily be added to the system for these cases, my understanding is it would be quite simple to have the engine report: "You traced a level 0 action, but determine it was a Greek male responsible." Of course, a blanket application of that might lead to the character being easily identifiable if, for example, there are only two female characters or only one Persian character and the ST flag might be a less "stupid" approach.
Decisions decisions...
ST flag sounds neat. Time consuming, I'm sure, but neat...
ReplyDeleteYeah, It might be possible to have the engine generate the generic code plus a flag and then the ST can modify things as needed.
Delete(by the rules, refreshing a level 0 influence would take 0 points)
ReplyDeleteI'm a little confused by this. Under the Toulouse rules "The total actions spent on the Trace define its level" and in order to refresh an influence you have to ” acquire more levels on the refresh than your enemies have spent on tracing you". I interpreted this as meaning that if I spent a 3 action tracing someone (assuming they had a conceal action) and they only had a 1 that I had a level 3 trace on them and that it would take 3 successes (the level of my trace) in a refresh action (or actions) to get rid of my trace rather than 1 success (the level of their influence).
The issue with multiple contacts could be dealt with using the trace level where at a certain level (3 or half the influence maybe) you would know that the influence you traced was the same as your other contact. The would need to be consistent across turns so that if you find a contact in a later turn, you would recognize it. This might also lead to the question of whether you can build Trace levels over multiple turns, presumable with a maximum level of the influence being traced(?).
I agree with not having a permanent trace on zero level influences. I think if you trace a zero you should find out who was behind the influence and that it was done personally. The Toulouse rules indicated you would find out who was behind the action and their influence level relative to your own. You may end up with an issue in the system if you end up tracing an action someone took with a zero influence when they also have an actual influence
Ah, I'm working off a version of Refresh that didn't get released in Toulouse. Refresh was something added in from house rules versions of the influence system because by-the-book there was no way to shake a trace. The newer version of Refresh says you need to spend twice your influence level to shake off a trace.
DeleteThat said, the more complex trace (you could trace with a potent trace to prevent refreshes and maybe continue to press a trace so it can't easily be evaded is something that could more easily be implemented in these rules, but also much more complex.
And, thanks for the observation about someone who does have influence doing a level 0 action. Since I had been thinking of giving level 0 actions a free level of conceal, maybe that benefit could be level 0 actions aren't always directly traced back to the individual? Or maybe it's a different sort of check to identify the target of a level 0 trace? Or you could just learn who did it and it was done with a level 0 action and the trace is worthless after that.
I guess the question is: Nefersedjem traces Marcellus's level 0 action, sure he might know it was Marcellus that did it, but if Marcellus also has 4 levels of the influence, should he keep that trace and be able to notice Marcellus' whole pool of 4?
With further thought, it seems like it might just be easiest if you learn who it was that used a level 0 action. You're presumably putting the pieces together when you figure out it was a tall Roman man asking about ships sailing from Cyprus.
DeleteAlso, perhaps we can distinguish actions taken with an influence 0 pool from any old level 0 action. If these two types of level 0 actions are different, they can have the distinct results: e.g. maybe you don't get all the info from a trace or the level 0 action from a character with no influence in a pool has bonus levels of conceal and defend.
At any rate, it definitely seems like you need to know when your trace will stick around (someone with an influence pool preforms an action you spot, even if it is level 0) and actions where the trace gives you knowledge of the perp but not the ability to attack or follow (cause there's no network to attack/follow if they have a level 0 influence).